Seriously, Joe, do you not know the stakes? “Sure, America fell to fascism, but I tried my best.” For fucks sake, Trump has straight up said he was going to be a dictator, and the Supreme Court will back him all the way. It’s unbelievable that all that stands between us and the fall of the republic is a man in his 80s who isn’t fully cognizant of the situation.
Well yeah. He doesn’t have to live with the consequences 💀
“America fell to fascism” will vote for Genocide Joe. 🙄
Honestly, I don’t think this rhetoric is helpful anymore. As vile and disgusting as it is, we don’t have a viable anti-genocide option. We need to pick our battles. I’m pretty left-leaning myself, so if you’ll indulge me, this is why I feel compelled to grudgingly vote for the Democratic ticket.
Biden is a garden variety conservative corporate stooge, which has basically been the best case scenario ever since Reagan killed the New Deal. The billionaires that control this country aren’t going to allow an administration that pushes back on imperialism and empire. Thus, we never get a chance to elect someone who’d actually stand up to Israel. Just look at what happened to Bernie. I voted uncommitted in the primary because I was furious about the genocide, but, electorally, that’s about all I can truly do. The first past the post system actively punishes people who vote third party, and not voting against Trump is not an option for me. I’m a trans woman. I do not have the luxury of ideological purity. I have to vote for whomever the Democrats put up because Trump will institute a dictatorship that could very well have me put to death. After the “Supreme” Court’s decision to allow immunity for presidents, I am even more convinced that the Republicans cannot ever be allowed to take power again. If the U.S. goes fully fascist, its influence will be as such that the current right wing wave in the West will be like a tiny ripple.
I hate the position we’re in. It sucks. This country has been so utterly inundated with anti-left propaganda that people think liberalism is far left. We should be organizing and radicalizing everyone we can, 100%. I’m hoping that this late stage capitalist hellscape we’re living in will help with that. But, even then, it’s going to be a painfully slow process. We have six years olds being forced to swear that they won’t betray the country every morning at school. Few people ever seem to stop and think just how fucking weird the Pledge of Allegiance is. When people are that indoctrinated, it’ll take a Herculean effort to get them to realize they’ve been lied to their whole life. That doesn’t mean it’s not worth doing, but we’re not going to be able to snap our fingers, elect a president from the Green party, and everything will be all better. It doesn’t work like that. Change comes from the bottom up, by changing hearts and minds. People won’t like to hear this, but we need to be patient until our efforts bear fruit.
So, we need to buy time. Failing to thwart Trump’s dictatorship pretty much only leaves the last resort, revolution. Biden is too milquetoast to order purges. However, Trump will have no scruples cracking down on his “enemies”. With how open we all are on social media, it would be trivial for someone in control of the three letter agencies to find us all. If this were a normal election, I’d be fine with people voting their conscience. I get it. I’d love to vote for the Socialist ticket. But I have to engage with the world as it really is. I had to set aside my idealism in favor of pragmatism.
Here we’ve been being lectured that we don’t understand the stakes if we don’t all line up behind Biden, rather than insisting we need someone else.
Turns out, we were right all along, and Biden doesn’t understand the stakes, and is totally fine losing so long as he ‘gives it his all’.
He won’t pack the court. He won’t do anything to forestall Project 2025. He’ll just pat himself on the back behind his lifelong Secret Service protection and tell himself there was nothing he could do but hand the country over to a dictator.
Edit: Polling - released by Biden’s campaign to try to prove his electability - shows other Democratic candidates right now performing just as well or slightly better than Biden with voters, and none of them have been running a campaign for the last year. In other words, without even trying, they are on par with Biden, and none of them have the baggage he does.
GTFOH with this bullshit.
It’s really a shame that the President makes every single decision on his own and handles absolutely everything by himself. It would be a better system if we had some sort of “cabinet” of advisiors all focused on different areas of running the country. It would be more like an “administration” instead of just what we have, which is one single guy who does everything and look, Biden is too old to do all that. If only there was some other way that he could have some assistance…
This is an argument for why Biden is able to lead. Speaking for myself, I’m not so worried that Biden is unable to lead. He’s old and obviously slowing down, but he’s got decades of experience and, as you say, a whole administration’s worth of expertise.
I’m worried that he is unable to win.
At this point, no one else can. Straight up. To think otherwise is fucking delusional and demonstrates a lack of knowledge of us politics and it’s populace.
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Polling - released by Biden’s campaign to try to prove his electability - shows other Democratic candidates right now performing just as well or slightly better than Biden with voters, and none of them have been running a campaign for the last year. In other words, without even trying and without the same level of name recognition, they are on par with Biden, and none of them have the baggage he does.
In the voting booth, incumbents ALWAYS have a MASSIVE advantage.
Polling is incredibly unreliable. That is people that pick up the phone and talk to pollsters. Do you know anyone under 60 who does that? Additionally, a lot of those calls are on landlines. How many people do you know who have landlines? How many of those are under 60?
The polls are heavily skewed towards boomers. This is the last election where boomers will be relevant. Millennials and Gen Z matter more in this election than ever before.
Replacing an incumbent 3-4 months before an election is the stupidest fucking idea since trickle down economics.
Polling is incredibly unreliable. That is people that pick up the phone and talk to pollsters. Do you know anyone under 60 who does that? Additionally, a lot of those calls are on landlines. How many people do you know who have landlines? How many of those are under 60? The polls are heavily skewed towards boomers.
All these incorrect assumptions of yours could have been answered simply by actually reading the poll report before making claims about it:
On June 28, 2024, Data for Progress conducted a survey of 1,011 U.S. likely voters nationally using web panel respondents.
https://www.filesforprogress.org/datasets/2024/6/dfp_post_first_presidential_debate.pdf
Literally entirely online.
Polling has long since shifted away from relying on landline cold-calls. And I agree that now is certainly sub-optimal for a change; that should have happened during the Primary (you know, where candidates present themselves to voters to find out who voters want), rather than the DNC pressuring other democrats out of running. But better late than never.
In the end, you and I are probably never going to see eye-to-eye, because of one fundamental difference of beliefs; you believe Biden might win. I don’t.
Since it seems clear that Biden isn’t going to step aside, I really hope you’re right and I’m wrong, but I’m not banking on it.
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Leaving this comment here and cleaning up some of this thread.
You’re welcome to disagree with each other. Discussion is definitely encouraged. This thread of comments, however, rapidly devolved into name calling.
It’s understandable that you’re upset with what this person is advocating when this election is so important and you disagree with their idea, but we can’t have a nice space when you attack anyone who disagrees with you. A three sentence long comment calling people delusional isn’t being nice. Hopping into this post and telling the poster to leave with their bullshit is not nice. You need to give others the benefit of the doubt and treat them with good faith.
I suspect that most voters won’t even think about that. This is the same voterbase that likes to vote based on who they’d rather have a beer with. I’d rather have a more informed populace, obviously, but the powers that be keep control by encouraging political ignorance, or failing that, learned helplessness. In the U.S., people legitimately think liberalism is left wing. How many Americans are capable of actually defining socialism? I don’t want to infantilize people, but we’ve got to work with what we have, and what we have is a deeply propagandized population that’s choosing apathy and despair in the specter of fascism. Joe Biden’s approval rating is 37%. People do not like him. The media keeps hammering him because they want Trump back(Trump brings views and much of the mainstream media has been captured by billionaires). The margin of victory in the swing states last time was so slim that a few thousand staying home this time around would flip it. I would be fine with another Biden term. We could Weekend at Bernie’s him through and everything would be fine. I just have severe doubts that people would see it my way, and so I feel his electability has tanked.
I really hope I’m wrong.
I suggest you look up presidential approval rating statistics for 2nd term races.
I did, actually, in another comment further down the thread.
The people he’s appointed have exacerbated conflict around the world and brought us to the brink of a world war. He’s incompetent and stuck in an imagined past of American world policing that no one wants anymore.
A country born by old white men which will die by old white men. Begins with a revolution to sever ties with a monarchy, ends with a coup to bring it back. We are truly coming full circle. 🤡
Asked if anything could convince him that he was on track to lose to Trump and should step down, Biden responded with a smile: “It depends on if the Lord Almighty comes down and tells me that, I might do that.”
Sir, the Lord Almighty better come down and take you back with him. Take Trump too, while he’s at it.
After that debate and all the things he’s said since, Biden’s image is at an all-time low. As ableist and ageist as it is, people think he’s a senile old man in the late stages of cognitive decline, with no business running a government. I doubt he or his campaign are going to do what they need to do to overcome that perception, and I doubt the Democratic Party will make the right calls either. “Decades of civil service” and “somewhat better than Trump” etc. are not going to be enough.
Ah yes, because people can control whether they are “old”, “white” or “men”. Racist son of a bitch.
I believe the full quote is “As long as I gave it my all, that’s what this is about”.
I thought it was about who would be President and all that entails, but apparently is actually about Joe doing his personal best.
It’s almost like he’s given up.
Personally I think they are both too old but the Dems should have put up somebody with a bit of fire in them. Really shown that they are serious.
Am from UK but taking a close interest here as it’s not just the US this will affect. It has repercussions around the world. The slimy git Farage got in here because of his trumpist views, and has emboldened him and his followers.
It’s dismaying to hear those words but it isn’t surprising. I don’t know how much of the sentiment is delusion and how much is dishonesty but, like many Democratic politicians, he has a pattern of painting politics as a bunch of reasonable disagreements that we can and should compromise on when he’s not discussing an individual issue.
So because the issue at hand is whether candidates should accept election results and all other political disputes are momentarily valid, the message he wants us to hear is: “The other guy wouldn’t accept what the voters say but I would. See how much more mature and level-headed I am?”
What terrifies me the most is I think saying that is the right move, politically. Most of his prospective voters are in denial that the right is becoming overtly fascist and would be turned off by the appropriate reaction to the idea of Trump winning again.
“This campaign is bigger than me or you. Everything we believe in, everything we stand for, and everyone we are fighting for are at risk in this election.” --Joe Biden campaign email, July 4th
“if I lose it’s cool lol” --Joe Biden on ABC News, July 5th, paraphrased
Clearly his email ghostwriter should be running instead.
What an incredibly misleading article. ABC asked a leading question about what happens if he loses, then Axios misquoted him. Watch the video. There’s nothing ‘at peace with losing’ about his words or his attitude.
This is a low-effort hit piece. Absolutely pathetic yellow journalism.
Biden is absolutely right that the press has been wrong about everything, and they still are. Polling is not an accurate measure of presidential races outside of exit polling. Debates are a media circus and do not determine elections, and it would be absolute madness to abandon an incumbent.
It’s increasingly clear that the press wants a second Trump presidency. Thankfully, they are far less relevant and far less competent than they’d like to believe.
From the transcript:
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: And if you stay in and Trump is elected and everything you’re warning about comes to pass, how will you feel in January?
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN: I’ll feel as long as I gave it my all and I did the goodest job as I know I can do, that’s what this is about. Look, George. Think of it this way. You’ve heard me say this before. I think the United States and the world is at an inflection point when the things that happen in the next several years are gonna determine what the next six, seven decades are gonna be like.
And who’s gonna be able to hold NATO together like me? Who’s gonna be able to be in a position where I’m able to keep the Pacific Basin in a position where we’re-- we’re at least checkmating China now? Who’s gonna-- who’s gonna do that? Who has that reach? Who has-- who knows all these pe…? We’re gonna have, I guess a good way to judge me, is you’re gonna have now the NATO conference here in the United States next week. Come listen. See what they say.
Even the full quote doesn’t fill me with confidence. Biden’s approval rating is about 37%, which is where George H. W. Bush’s was, and he didn’t get re-elected. You’d have to go back to Truman to find a president that got re-elected with a similar approval percentage. At this point, I don’t think the incumbent advantage will save us.
I really am absolutely terrified that my life might be riding on this election. Honestly, I’m at the point where I don’t really care what it takes, the fascists must not be allowed to prevail. If that means moving on from Biden, fine. If it means guilting freaking Michelle Obama into running, fine. But if Biden is going to stay the nominee, he needs to recapture the American people’s confidence somehow, and I’m not sure how he’s going to do it.
also, here’s where I got the approval ratings data from:
https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-BIDEN/POLL/nmopagnqapa/
https://news.gallup.com/poll/311825/presidential-job-approval-related-reelection-historically.aspx
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jul/06/biden-trump-race-rebecca-solnit
The press is being chicken little, and writing hundreds of articles about Biden sounding hoarse and none about the lies Trump spewed or the fascism that he’s promising.
He really said goodest? Or is that transcript satire? Too much sarcastic cleverness in this thread for me to follow.
Again, political polling is notoriously meaningless outside of exit polling.
This election the media is doing the same thing they do to make our bullshit exploitative economy seem like it’s healthy. They focus on measures that mean fuck all as if they were representative of something significant.
It’s smoke and mirrors.
Want to make sure we don’t get a fascist? Get poor people to vote. If the poor turn out to the polls, we can literally flip every single state.
Trying to talk the DNC into an absolutely bonkers gamble will not win the election. Mobilizing voters will
This is anecdotal, but the vibes I’m getting in offline conversations make me think that his low approval rating is accurate. There’s a lot of “Biden is too old, and hasn’t done much(which isn’t entirely true), but I’ll vote against Trump.” That’s great and all, but I live in a deep blue city(Seattle) and, honestly, I am deeply concerned about people who are more moderate, who aren’t as vehemently anti-Trump. I think the disconnect here is that we differ greatly in our faith that the Dems will turn out. They responded well in 2020 to kick Trump out, but I don’t know how much that fire still burns in the voting populace. Some people respond better to carrots than sticks, and while the threat of Trump is a hell of a stick, Biden is not much of a carrot. Not to say that Biden hasn’t done some good things, but I feel that the media and Russia have hammered Biden enough that I think the damage is done.
That being said, however, I’m going to disengage here, and try to refrain from advocating that Biden step down going forward. Posting this thread was a mistake on my part, and I’ll take full responsibility for it. Anything that dampens enthusiasm for the Democratic nominee should be avoided at all costs, and by posting this thread and suggesting that Biden should be replaced, I was simply doing Russia’s job for them, and for that, I’m sorry. It’s not like we have any power over the situation to begin with. The party will decide whether to stick with Biden or not, and it’s our job to help make sure they defeat the fascists.
Biden’s approval rating is about 37%, which is where George H. W. Bush’s was, and he didn’t get re-elected.
I wouldn’t say that I particularly “approve” of Biden, so I’m probably counted in the 63 percent. But I’m still going to vote for him.
Sure, I’d be more excited to vote for Michelle Obama or Josh Shapiro, but I’ll still vote for Joe Biden if he’s the nominee.
I agree with a lot of what you’re saying, but we should also be aware of how this is shouldn’t be the major discussion we are having. Whether Biden runs or not, it will be the same advisors, the same policies. We’re allowing the media to run with the “Biden is old is somehow more of a concern” talking point.
There’s many more reasons for Trump to be called on to drop out, yet everyone is focusing so hard on Biden it’s overshadowing the story of Trump’s Epstein activity among other things.
And while we are arguing about whether Biden should or shouldn’t, Trump and his supporters are getting away with all manner of evil shit. Even if the Democrats picked another candidate I’m sure the media would then focus on how Biden dropping out somehow meant the Democrats were bad etc. not saying it shouldn’t be discussed, just don’t let it be the only discussion.
I don’t want Trump to be replaced with a “better” Republican candidate that is more likely to win, because I don’t want Republicans to win.
I want Biden to be replaced with a better Democrat candidate that is more likely to win, because I want Democrats to win.
There is also no world in which actual Republicans will demand Trump exit the race, so it’s silly to think Democrats demanding that would mean anything.
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American elections, in a nutshell, come down to this. Turnout. Motivate your voters to go to the polls en masse, and you win. There just isn’t that many swing voters, especially in an election like this where both candidates have been President. The reason this has been catastrophic for Biden is that appearing to be old and out of touch tends to depress enthusiasm. Combine that with the short memories of the voters and you’ll have people not bothering to vote because “both options are bad”. As we get further and further from Trump’s presidency, people’s memories start to fade, they think to themselves, “oh, he wasn’t THAT bad, we had more money back then.” There’s also lots of people who haven’t heard about Project 2025, aren’t paying attention to Trump saying that he’ll be a dictator on the first day, etc. They will naively think to themselves that it can’t happen here, that the U.S. is somehow special. Biden’s margin of victory in some of the swing states was minuscule, and that was at the height of Anything But Trump sentiment. We absolutely cannot afford to have anyone stay home. Maybe some of the post Roe effect will help spur turnout. I don’t know. But presidential elections are unfortunately just a popularity contest. I really do think we need to see if there’s someone charismatic that we can roll the dice on. Because “Not Trump” won’t be enough, and that’s pretty much all Biden ever had going for him.
but which democrat candidate has a better chance?
Based on recent polling, potentially most of them could surpass him with even a little bit of national exposure. No clue if it’s too late, or not, but better to try than just concede the election to Trump.
I think if there was a big frontrunner they would do this.
The DNC was pressuring other potential Democrat candidates not to run during the Primary (including the most prominent names now like Newsom, Whitmer, and Buttigieg) from the get-go, so I guarantee they’re not about to do a 180. The DNC would rather lose to Trump than run a candidate they did not ordain. Remember in 2008 when they did literally everything they could to stop Obama winning against Clinton until they had no other choice? Or 2016, which was a whole mess of undemocratic bullshit (that article is wild, and it was written by Donna Brazile, the Chairperson of the DNC during the 2016 election).
But also even if they don’t replace Biden that doesn’t somehow make Trump a better choice… Spending so much time labouring this point
No one is talking about voting for Trump, what we’re saying is that we don’t think Biden is going to win against Trump. That’s the reason this is worth spending so much time belaboring; to me, Biden is delivering us into Trump’s hands.
If you believe Biden might win, then it’s ‘Chance of Winning with Biden’ versus ‘Chance of Winning with [Replacement]’, and who really knows what their chances might be?
If you don’t believe Biden might win, it’s ‘Assured Loss with Biden’ versus ‘Chance of Winning with [Replacement]’, so obviously that would be the route to go.
(Accidentally deletedy previous post, sorry) but you make very good points. I wasn’t saying I thought he was the best candidate, it was more that’s what I thought their reasoning was for still running.
I overall also think someone else should run, that wasn’t my point. More that we should be focusing on how awful a candidate Trump is (and all his crimes, victims, his horrible plans for office) - and while these are all excellent points, that the Democrat candidate is almost insignificant in comparison. The Democrats establishment should be on the attack, on the defense. (Being super general). Make that the motivation to vote Democrat.
I do agree with that. Trump should 100% drop out. Unfortunately, his base loves the evil shit, and he might still feel that getting elected will keep himself out of jail, so there’s no way he’s going to.
But, yeah, the media is absolutely screwing us here. They deserve all the condemnation we can give them. We understand that we’re voting for an administration, and not just one man, but does the country as a whole realize that? I doubt it. Civics education in the U.S. is abysmal.
I also kinda cynically think that maybe if we subbed in someone with high name recognition and at least decent favorability, that the media and the Russian disinformation engine won’t have enough time to hack together a hitjob on them. I don’t know, I’m just spitballing and huffing copium here, I think. Need to keep my hopes up somehow.
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The double standard the media plays with the 2 candidates is mind blowing. I have two thoughts
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The media writes a bunch of articles about “Biden old” and social media amplifies them. Then they bring Joe on and say “Let’s put aside that you are doing a great job for a min. A lot of people question if you are able to do the job. Predict the future.”
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The other guy meanwhile says the media is the enemy of the state. Has vowed retribution against his enemies. Literally talks about having public executions. The Supreme Court he appointed rules that he is immune from law and his lawyer literally agreed with a judge that asked if he could in fact assassinate his rivals.
Bonus thought: Which candidate makes the media more money?
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