Hello World!
We’ve made some changes today, and we’d like to announce that our Code of Conduct is no longer in effect. We now have a new Terms of Service, in effect starting from today(October 19, 2023).
The “LAST REVISION DATE:” on the page also signifies when the page was last edited, and it is updated automatically. Details of specific edits may be viewed by following the “Page History” reference at the bottom of the page. All significant edits will also be announced to our users.
The new Terms of Service can be found at https://legal.lemmy.world/
In this post our community mods and users may express their questions, concerns, requests and issues regarding the Terms of Service, and content moderation in Lemmy.World. We hope to discuss and inform constructively and in good faith.
5.0.6: No visual content depicting executions, murder, suicide, dismemberment, visible innards, excessive gore, or charred bodies. No content depicting, promoting or enabling animal abuse.
This rule needs an exception for war reporting, and posting evidence of criminal activity or police misconduct.
And hobbyist
fucking lawyers ruin everything
You can’t say that word, no? /s
True. “L*wyer” is a very taboo word in almost every civilized society.
Then stop fucking lawyers :D
Not really tbh. We don’t need to personally see that stuff — it can cause lasting trauma. Knowing it exists and who did it is enough for war reporting.
then don’t look at it
It’s easier not to look at when you know where it’s prohibited from being posted.
We could just make it opt-in. Then it’s impossible to accidentally click on it.
You can opt in by visiting a community on another instance that allows it.
That’s not how opting in works, at all.
I agree that it’s fine to make a rule against it on a privately funded instance but definitely do not agree with your line of thinking. Sometimes you can’t understand the gravity of horror without seeing it, and sometimes you must understand it to be motivated to do something about it. A little trauma of is sometimes necessary to be an informed citizen of the world.
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Citizens of free and democratic societies have a fundamental need to be informed of what is going on in the world and their communities, free of bias or censorship, so they can make informed, reality based decisions and instruct their representatives in government on how to carry out the will of the people. When you start filtering and curating peoples’ perception of reality to fit an agenda or narrative you’re talking away their agency (you tankies wouldn’t understand what that word means), and interfering with their duties as a citizen.
First of all, I am from Hong Kong and utterly hate the CCP and tankies. It’s frankly insulting that you would compare me to them when they consistently fight for the complete eradication of the Hong Kong identity.
But more importantly, there’s a line to be drawn there. I agree that it is important to be informed — but you don’t need Israel tweeting photos of dead babies onto everyone’s Twitter feeds and traumatising people to be informed that babies died. You don’t need to personally witness every single gory detail of humanity’s terrible sins in order to know that things have happened. That’s what people do as a job in journalism, and they have lots of protection to make sure they’re not traumatised by it. The average Lemming doesn’t need to see that.
what’s a “tankie”
Russian apologist who supports Russia in the Ukraine war is how I understand it.
Also they support the CCP
They have a veneer of communism but they really just support authoritarianism especially among geopolitical enemies of the USA.
Authoritarians of the left. For example, they support Putin because they’re against NATO, and they praise Mao, Stalin and other brutal dictators.
I have to agree with Astrealix on this. Information should be free. But information and snuff videos are two different things. I want information. I don’t need or want to be constantly exposed to gore content. And I don’t consider myself badly informed because I didn’t see one guy chopping another guy’s head in 4K-HD.
I don’t need or want to be constantly exposed to gore content.
A simple blurred image until clicked would prevent that, like it currently does with NSFW content.
I don’t need you deciding what level of gore that I am allowed to see
More importantly, we don’t need to be limiting the discussion of incredibly important political issues such as was just because the imagery is ugly. War is ugly, and reminding everyone of that is vitally important in preventing future wars. When we forget how ugly war truly is, we begin to allow for its glamorization. Much better for me to see the atrocities of war than for my children to experience them firsthand.
But they aren’t. You’re free to go to an instance that hosts those images.
Conversely if lemmy.world hosted gore, you’d be free to go to an instance that bans it. What a non statement.
I’m complaining about the policy. Saying I’m not allowed to complain about the policy, because that’s not what the policy says, is dumb.
Let me make it clearer: I don’t like this section of the terms and I’d like to hear their reasoning for why they made that policy decision.
Your reason for liking the gore ban makes no sense so I’m dismissing that as a possible reason for the admins’ decision.
Yes we do. Gore and mutilation are part of life. It should be shown on public television and kid’s shows so maybe we can finally understand the consequences of senseless warfare in future generations.
The people downvoting you better be as consistent when it comes to Australias tobacco packaging.
PTSD is a real thing. Trauma is a real thing. Yes, we are much too desensitised to war. Yes, we should absolutely be outraged and we need to recognise that warfare is terrible. That doesn’t mean that access to traumatisation should be easy. Look at suicide rates of veterans, for example. Trauma is a real thing, and there’s a reason there is so much research dedicated to protecting journalists etc. who have to look at this stuff so they can tell us the truth.
Look at suicide rates of veterans
I bet this is referring to the US veterans as I doubt there are other countries with such statistic and I wanted to say that IDGAFF. They chose to go fight in the other side of earth thinking they are doing good. Going back and realizing how wrong they were and that in fact they were killing people inside their homes and who never were an actual threat. The reason of the suicides is this tragic realization.
lol there are studies on it done for Russia, Ukraine, UK, Dutch UN troops who intervened in Srebrenica…
Ukraine has been defending itself. Dutchbat we’re trying and failing to maintain peace and instead watched as a massacre happened.
Yes, the US has more statistics, as it often does for psychology because many people don’t treat it seriously. That doesn’t mean the problem doesn’t exist.
Checks notes…
mumbles something
Ah yes so kids have previously been exposed to, in the normal course of life:
- Early civilization life at all in general
- Gladiator events
- Hangings
- Burning people alive
- Ad nauseam
So those were the most peaceful eras of humanity then, by your logic, yeah?
Sounds good to me, I don’t know why you are getting downvoted friend
I know, right? Thanks for the support.
Because they don’t know what they’re talking about. Although neither do I tbf
We don’t need to personally see that stuff
I find it difficult to understand that something should be banned because some people “don’t need” to see it. Then don’t look at it? And I’m talking specifically for war reporting now. I’m not talking for generic gore. It is war reporting. It is something that happens. By hiding it it only helps to enlarge our safe bubble and live in it. Sorry, this is not the world. If you want to live in your safe bubble it is up to you, but making it sound like the “correct way to handle reality” is wrong imo
Good thing these people weren’t on the internet in the early 2000’s with sites like rotten.com or toxic.com. much simpler days
Idk, I preferred meatspin and lemonparty.
Bluewaffle?
cavemen were simpler too, go ahead and fully revert already plz.
I’d rather not go on Tic Tok, but thanks for the suggestion
You so cute
this is unhelpful also
Thank you, I do what I can
That’s what lemmy.ml is for. This instance is too big for its own good.
Not just war reporting. There are legitmate medical discussions that can be aided by such depictions. There should be an exception made for legitimate educational images. Otherwise technically a biological textbook on dissection runs afoul of this rule.
I second this. Educational content should be an exception.
That is bad logic and no justification.
They’re an instance, they can put a rule requiring every comment to include the text “I’m a little teapot”.
That doesn’t imply it would be a good rule which is what we are disagreeing about. Pointing out they CAN have a rule is irrelevant.
what we are disagreeing about
In a federated system, the relevant part is each instance CAN have different rules. If you don’t like one set, or consider it “not good”, then go to an instance with a different set, or start your own.
“start your own”
“start you own!”
“Start you own start your own”
There should be a rule that allows for violence against people who say that
There should be a rule that allows for violence against people who say that
Are you suggesting to… “start your own”, violence? 😛
And people can criticize that choice.
Sure, they can. And people can point out it’s the instance owner’s choice.
Libertarianism is a garbage ideology.
5.0: Lemmy.World consists of a large number of communities from all around the world, leading our federated network.
This sentence is a little unclear to a native speaker. Maybe change “leading” to “constituting”.
I also suggest that maybe an extra clause could be added to pick up CP related content that may not be illegal, such as drawings, hentai and AI generated content that depicts minors involved in sexual or other inappropriate acts. It doesn’t quite fit into 5.04 as it may not necessarily be illegal (IDK) , or 5.06 as it may not necessarily involve gore or violence.
I also suggest that maybe an extra clause could be added to pick up CP related content that may not be illegal, such as drawings, hentai and AI generated content that depicts minors involved in sexual or other inappropriate acts.
Well good luck in defining what constitutes “a minor” in a drawing.
I think it’s fine like this, most openly loli/shota-friendly instances are defederated anyway, I don’t think the “gray area” where most hentai falls is bothering anyone.
It’s not about defining it, it’s about giving yourself a pre communicated basis to remove content that may be disagreeable but not strictly illegal.
Thanks for being upfront and clear about things. I know it’s not easy.
If you don’t have anyone on the team who has great soft skills I’d suggest you put out a call for “community managers.” Mostly for things like this.
Keep up the great work! I’m glad to see how everything is coming together. 🍻
Thank you! But funny you bring this up…
Because that’s exactly what we are working on. Community Management and Engagement Management teams are being formed. Community managers will be checking up on moderation and are about keeping communities healthy. Community Engagement team will be responsible to help provide content, putting community’s in the spotlight and more.
Formation of these teams is ongoing, if anyone reads this and is interested contact me or @clueless_stoner@lemmy.world
Anyway, more on that in a different thread soon!
Oh, does that mean there will be a place to appeal moderation? The only issue I’ve had so far is on lemmy.ml, but it’d be nice to know there’s some recourse to mods pushing an agenda or propaganda.
Yes, it will be possible to report abusive moderation with your own input, hopefully very soon.
Feels kind of wrong that that isn’t done in tandem with this.
4.0.1: You were not permanently banished from the website in the past.
Doesn’t this imply that only having a temporary ban allows you to keep going on some other account? Seems like quite the loophole.
Idk, it seems pretty clear.
If you got a permaban then you’re not welcome.
The world temporary isn’t used there. There would be nothing to stop someone from just making a new account in either case. But if it were obvious someone was trying to get around that clause then it would be more than enough of a reason to swing the ban hammer.
I like what I see. Everything looks like a set of conditions I can support. I am not sure about the gore part, but I can understand why people wouldn’t want that can of worms.
4.1: No one under 16 years of age is allowed to use or access the website.
Someone’s going to need a stretcher for the roblox mods.
Sir, I just need you to confirm you date of birth is indeed: Jan 01 1999
But have no fear. It’s not the rule people should worry about, its the punishment!
Clause 66, section 6: All ages 16 of less will be sentenced to 15 days in the meme mines. And possibly made mandatory mod of Boomer Memes for an hour. May the odds be ever in your favor.
It’s about legal liability. The admins don’t want to have to worry about dealing with all sorts of EU and US regulation for minors so they can have an official policy that minors can’t use the site.
Nobody really cares if kids participate but it’s not the admin’s responsibility to bend over backwards for regulations to accommodate them.
Agreed but the puritans that have to give it up before we can expect sites like this to overexpose themselves to legal action.
News flash, kids exist and adults already have their safe spaces.
This sure as hell ain’t the place for them.
I don’t wonder. I know. It’s because they’re on the internet instead of going.the.fuck.outside.
There is zero wrong with putting age limits in place.
And the admins (and myself, for that matter) want to exist without the risk of doing a perp walk because Little Timmy saw a peen.
I’m on an NSFW Lemmy instance. I have multiple NSFW accounts spread over the various platforms, and my single biggest fear is that some shithead kid is going to ignore the giant “18+ only” warnings because they’re so MATURE for their age, they’re going to find adult content (or worse yet, try and message me and pretend they’re over 18 so I don’t block them), and one of their relatives find out and call the police. Intentionally done or not, I’ve seen exactly that scenario play out, ruining the lives of multiple people through no fault of their own.
The Lemmy admins all have to worry about this exact same thing too, except they have to worry about every kid and every NSFW account/community, unless they decide to either play whack-a-mole with the various NSFW instances, or move to default deny federation and only federate with known-SFW communities. And that’s on top of the existing CSAM spam concerns that they appear to have only recently gotten under control.
I don’t give a single solitary flying fuck about whether children can express themselves equally. They’re NOT equal to an adult, because I don’t risk jail time by showing off my [REDACTED] to them.
Remember Lemmy does not only have safe content and communities, and this includes our federated network. If you think kids should be able to view some of those, then you are free to disagree. We are happily following obligations.
An instance doesn’t have to follow, or show, the content from all the instances it’s federated with. If you chose to do so, that’s your choice, there is likely another “kids friendly” Lemmy federation split on the horizon.
I don’t necessarily. I remember when I was young, and hanging around on BBS’es and forums all the time. I was a little shit.
Let’s take a look at what comments look like when you encourage kids to sign up
Broo 💀💀
bro woke up and chose violence
And who could forget this classic
🔥🔥🔥
Age limits are entirely self-selected. If you’re dumb enough to out yourself as breaking them, you were probably not contributing to the community in the first place
Is there any chance of going back to pure and enlightened Anarchism?
Lots of people think anarchy is what they want, until they get it.
no rules sounds pretty good, maybe there’s even an instance for it. but i guarantee that there will be a LOT of nazis and queerphobes. and that’s not why i am here.
Sure seems like a lazy way to dismiss the argument, just saying that he actually doesn’t know what he wants.
Not to put your point down, but to enritch it.
people have longed for X utopia, but when people get it its a distopian hellscape.
This phrase was said about ideologies like capitolism, communism, liberalism, conservitism, anarchism (like tou did) and likely more.
each time I pose a question, was the pure vision an evil one, or did it get twisted apon or after implementation
I argue that, in the specific problem space of Internet discussion communities, the absence of central guidance has been shown again and again to result in a race to the bottom.
That’s why computer networks have struggled with the problem for literally decades, since before http was a glimmer in the mind of Tim Berners-Lee. I well remember early USENET node providers claiming “completely uncensored” access to all newsgroups, only to find within 6 months or a year that they had to dramatically scale back on that promise by restricting the newsgroup list, or cancel certain customers, due to lawbreaking behavior. The problems of discussion forum moderation gave us Section 230, which grants immunity to site moderators for good-faith actions to restrict distribution of information which is “obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable”.
Section 230 is pretty much an acknowledgment that without moderation, forums will almost inevitably descend into threats and harassment. And if you think that surely even a non-controversial forum could survive without moderation, look at what happened to Ravelry.
I miss the high technical bar to entry. Was great.
Having lived through the “Eternal September” beginnings, I’m sorry but you’ve got very strongly rose-tinted glasses on.
(Ref)USENET was a cesspool on the order of any modern *chan board or their ilk both before and after the Eternal September. Having a high technical bar to entry just meant most participants were obsessive lunatics with poor socialization (instead of merely half).
this comment smells like a windows irc client
A Windows IRC client … to access Lemmy?
That would be a high technical bar to entry!
Having a high technical bar to entry just meant most participants were obsessive lunatics with poor socialization (instead of merely half)
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If you were to turn that on for lemmy.world as well I think it would get you better voting behavior from users all around.
Is it possible on Lemmy interface ? I thought that data required to have a look at the database
That’s what I had in mind, thanks
The best way to fuck a democratic process up is making votes public. No one should feel like there’s a “deterrent” to voting. All that does is create incentive to reward/punish people for how they vote.
Voting is what fuels the content aggregation, too. It is a very bad idea to deter people from voting how they please because it strangles the algorithm of the data it needs to sort the content. You want people voting, a lot. That’s what makes the whole thing work.
Edit: which is to say nothing of how bad it will get when people make tools that help automate retaliation for downvotes. You can potentially state an opinion in a comment and set up a bot to auto block every downvoter, then share that list publicly. You may think that sounds like a great system for weeding out hate but I promise you it’s going to be far messier than that, and more importantly, this kind of retaliatory shit hurts the aggregation even more.
You can potentially state an opinion in a comment and set up a bot to auto block every downvoter, then share that list publicly.
Shhh dont give them ideas
Since upvoting is most of what I do, I think it’s great that people can see it was me who upvoted them.
I don’t mind the accountability of a downvote at all. If I didn’t craft a specific reply, it lets people know who to ask if they genuinely don’t understand why their content was problematic.
That should really be changed so that you can only see the cumulative votes from any given instance and only a user’s specific instance will have records of their individual upvotes and downvotes.
That would make pushing posts to the top via botting way too easy, and far harder to detect. Federation is intentionally set up so that instances do not trust each other.
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You can see upvote info by viewing from kbin. Upvotes are displayed as favorites there.
All Lemmy instances have up/down votes. its disabled by default in each users’ settings. Literally just go into your settings once, and look around.
Lol
IIRC
Kbin recently removed the abilityto show who faved/unfavved a post for Lemmy instances.Edit: guess they did not 🤦
It is quite easily accessible. Here
I swear there was discussion about hiding faves coming from lemmy… guess they decided not to. At least you can still follow people and see who else is following them… 🤦
No one should feel like there’s a “deterrent” to voting.
. . . It is a very bad idea to deter people from voting
You misread. What I wrote:
deterrent against weaponizing downvotes
Voting and weaponizing downvotes are two very different things.
To be clear, I used the phrase “weaponizing downvotes” to paraphrase the intent behind the written policy I quoted in full. Here it is again:
Do not engage in content manipulation such as posting spam content, vote manipulation through using several user accounts or consistently down-voting a user. Vote for the content, not for the person.
Seems like you have a problem with the policy then, because it is requiring you to self-regulate your own voting, and to specifically NOT vote as you please, but in a way that is best for the community as a whole.
Votes on lemmy are inherently public, due to how federation works.
The US is based on Federalism and we don’t make our votes public
I think that if you access Lemmy via api, you can see who downvoted you specifically. I’d prefer it’d be turned off as I think people feel better about participation when they don’t have to go on the record to other users officially.
So you’re saying a motivated individual can still quasi weaponize it.
Imagine getting blackmailed because someone knows you upvoted that kink content or whatever
Multiple accounts. It’s somewhat unfortunate, but in a public ecosystem like the fediverse, it’s pretty much a requirement to compartmentalize separate aspects of your personality. Particularly if you dare to hold different opinions on different things that don’t align with majority social groups of people.
Honestly, not writing this from some dedicated “introspection” account, already makes me slightly uncomfortable 😐
That sounds like an awful complicated way to say you care about what other people think too much
Or maybe I’ve met too many people who care too much about what I think 🤷
proofs of idiocy and/or bad faith they offer
Then a downvote is justified, same user or not.
I’ve had a user disagree with me and then go through my entire post history and downvote every single one of my comments. I don’t get why someone would do that but I can see why Lemmy.world would put it against their terms of service.
I get that all the time. It amused me greatly until the day I found out I can turn off the Fantasy Internet Points entirely. Now I have no idea if my votes are up or down or sideways.
And I don’t care.
It happened to me, and it was the She-Ra fans who did it. They were angry that I called them monarchists.
Why is it necessary to count votes cast an unlimited time after posting. The best policy is to register votes in the UI for the user but silently ignore votes after max duration. So they can feel like they stuck it to you while not having an unreasonable effect. You could even detect and silently discard downvotes that matched that pattern or rate limit the downvotes against one party silently.
“Not my previous updoots😭”
If you were to turn that on for lemmy.world as well I think it would get you better voting behavior from users all around.
I don’t think so. I think the more likely scenario is this would lead to people weaponizing other’s downvote history, and then very quickly people would stop downvoting completely. You’d have less downvotes overall, which is not always a good thing. At that point they should just remove the ability to downvote altogether, they’ll be accomplishing the same thing.
Lemmy.world getting increasingly like Beehaw on steroids. Ironically, for their anti-authoritarian editorial policies, they’re increasingly stomping down what is and isn’t acceptable. Most people who like to be treated like adults fortunately have lemm.ee or Lemmy.ml
Signed, former Lemmy.world resident
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Ok
Firstly, I have more than one account for different purposes. These were created when performance problems were rampant, and my view was always to return, and then the Hexbear defederation happened before even federation occurred based on speculation. It was much quicker than Exploding Heads defederation was. Based on that decision and the way it was worded in the announcement, which failed to be impartial, detached, or hiding in personal intent, I was hesitant to return fully. See the lemm.ee announcement taken for contrast which was done by someone with more than enough reason to defederate, but they approached it in a balanced and mature manner. In line with that, this can become quite sinister:
“Always post compliant content that upholds the rules of the individual community and the website, and is of personal interest to you.”
“uphold the rules of the website” and ensure posts are “compliant”. It very much comes across as though world is a political site, and has taken a clear editorial line. Anyone from the left isn’t welcome… and steps will be taken if it makes anyone feel any cognitive dissonance. lemmy.ml, lemm.ee and shit.just.works are far superior general purpose instances.
Interestingly enough, you have the following:
“Vote for the content, not for the person.”
and yet you decided to search me, and go for the ad hominem. Playing the person and not the point. I’m getting the anyone that disagrees is a problem vibe here.
Ok
Tell me you didn’t read the TOS without telling me you didn’t read the TOS.
Whats your complaint? You can’t:
- Harass others
- Post sexual abuse fantasy/reality
- Post murder/gore
- Act like an infant and down vote all content of another lemming
Can you specify which of the above you take issue with? If I missed something in the TOS that you’re taking issue with, I’m curious what it is.
Otherwise I think you’re lost and looking for a different thread.
My response was here: https://lemm.ee/comment/5092425
I’ll save retyping.
Ok
Regarding Section 1.0, the portion “lemmy.world (“Lemmy.World,” “we,” “us,” or “LW”).” You may need to include the term “our” since it’s used quite frequently throughout the document.
Love it, glad to be here on .World.
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7.0: The website and the agreement will be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, and the Republic of Finland Suomen.
oh ok, some operational details make more sense now
Literally 1984