For context: I was a much more ignorant person back in 2014 than I am today. My views then do not reflect my views now (tw: Fatphobia, Sexism, Sinophobia, transphobia, Z-propaganda)
This isn’t my first rodeo dealing with a reddit migration. My first attempt to leave the site happened back in 2014 when several subs got banned, including several shaming subs when Ellen Pao was CEO of reddit.
Back then, there were a lot of unfounded rumors of the site being taken over by the Chinese government (cause Ellen was Chinese American), and being an ignorant person, I fell for it hook line and sinker.
So around that time, a few reddit alternatives started getting passed around, including a site called Voat. It was basically just like reddit, but the bandwidth and UI wasn’t nearly as sophisticated as reddits, thus the site constantly crashed. I spent a bit of time on there before heading back to reddit and never looking back. And the main reason I left was because the overall culture there was mean spirited, unhinged, and basically a reactionary version of reddit (which looking back makes sense considering this reddit migration was basically a reaction from trying to protect people)
Fast forward to now, and I’m starting to get de ja vu from the fediverse. At first I was on kbin, which seemed promising at first until I noticed that any article involving trans issues had a slew of transphobic comments that had a lot of traction. Realizing there was very little moderation being done there, I gave lemmyworld a try, but same issue, plus it seemed any article having to do with Ukraine had a lot of pro-Russian posts. And whenever I bring up this fact, I get a lot of pushback from users and mods. Part of the reason I ended up here is because one user told me “If you need a safe space, you should go over to beehaw with all the other snowflakes.”
At this point, I already have a fairly negative view of the fediverse. I hate what is happening to reddit right now, and yet it feels like the alternatives aren’t much better in providing a safe environment for its users.
Maybe my problem is with redditors, but at the very least reddit was equipped to keep the dumbest of dumbasses out of visibility. Here, even in supposedly more open minded communities and instances, such dumbassery has just as much weight as thoughtful, upvoted posts.
I don’t know. I can’t see myself staying involved with this project for long, if it’s just going to remain as unpleasant as it is now.
Also, sorry if this isn’t the right community to be posting this in. I’ll gladly move this where this needs to go if its the case.
Edit: riveting discussion example: @Cat_of_the_Round fuck philosophy. unless you reeeeelly care that much. your behind a kb for christ sake. Oh no. Someone had an opinion. I’m assuming you can in the very least ignore them. Othewise who the fuck cares?
yeah, I think I’m done here.
Could you point me to the anti trans comments on kbin? As a kbinaut I’d like to do my part and downvote & report them.
I’ve found that kbin is a pretty chill community, personally, but I must have missed that thread.
Anyway, yes, I think beehaw could be an excellent place for you. They actively try to keep assholes out, and they try to foster a community that’s thoughtful and insightful. I think they’re doing a pretty good job so far.
I haven’t noticed any anti trans stuff though I wonder if I’m the person they’re talking about lol
I think you’re pretty vocal about disagreeing with some aspects of the modern trans(gender) movement, but imo that’s very different from being “anti trans”.
yup. people often see it that way though. I try not to hate anyone even if I can disagree quite strongly with stuff. I’m vocal about what I think and unapologetic about it, but I try to avoid creating strife/hate/conflict.
I’d say it’s fine as long as you know where to draw the line and stop. Not everything can be rationalized or argumented away, sooner or later you’re going to hit someone’s emotional weak spot and make them uncomfortable since they won’t be able to separate it like you do.
This doesn’t apply to you specifically since I don’t know you well enough, but in my experience people who say “I have no filter, I say it the way it is and I will never apologize for it” are not doing it because it’s the right thing to do but rather because they can’t help themselves and it’s easier not to bother about how other people feel. I think we’d be all better off if we had a filter and weighted our words more carefully, especially on the internet where it’s so easy to just lash out. That doesn’t mean keeping your opinion to yourself and never speaking up of course.
Ah I see what you mean. I do have a “filter” but I meant more in terms of beliefs/views. I’m not gonna apologize for what I believe, but I’m not gonna throw stuff out that I know will hurt someone if it’s unwarranted. I know when and how to bite my tongue if need be to keep peace.
fediverse is dealing with a large influx of users thats way bigger than anything theyve had to deal with so far
this coupled with the fact that you can join in on from any of the sites if you are banned from a specific instance means moderation has not been able to keep up
the devs of the various sites are working in improving their teams and tools to better deal with the moderation required, its likely a temporary issue
for now make as much use of the block button as possible, both for specific people and whole communities that seem to exist solely to be assholes
on top of that, beehaw has recently defederated with two of the biggest instances, lemmy.world and shitjustworks, meaning that moderation will probably be able to keep up more again
fediverse is dealing with a large influx of users thats way bigger than anything theyve had to deal with so far
Hate to be that guy, but general reminder that Lemmy and Kbin are not the whole of the fediverse. This is definitely the most growth that either Lemmy or Kbin have seen, though.
my saying fediverse instead of specifying lemmy and kbin wasnt to imply that those are all of the fediverse, i did so because federation tends to mean that an influx of users to any of the federated sites means an influx of users to nearly the whole network
That’s true, though the ratio is relatively weak. The microblogging services in the fediverse have seen much larger influxes than what Kbin and Lemmy are going through, and while I’m sure both Kbin and Lemmy saw some growth from those influxes, it was probably pretty minimal. I have seen some new users on Mastodon as a result of the Reddit issues, but obviously it’s just been a fraction of the new users on these platforms.
So the statement “fediverse is dealing with a large influx of users that’s way bigger than anything they’ve had to deal with so far” is either inaccurate in the definition of the fediverse, or inaccurate in the relative size of this influx.
thats fair
They claimed it was volume of posts and the free registration. It costs nothing to make a new account on shitjustworks and completely flood a beehaw post full of just plain mean comments. Beehaw wants some ability to decide who posts. For their own site you have to submit a tiny application, but they would prefer that problematic instances be limited in only posting. They don’t mind sharing posts, but federation is explicitly two way. Until moderation tools fill the gap they are doing it in defense.
Personally I think it is a couple of things. My experience while being on the net for 35 years or so is that moderation on one hand and on the other hand a bit of a thick skin and a “Do Not Feed the Trolls” attitude is required. I have encountered trolls on Reddit and on Usenet which was way before Reddit. Yes I was on Voat awhile with you too… so I know what you mean.
Why? One it is a number of things. Good communication only happens when both parties are trying. So bad communication is more probable then good out of the gate. Plus the numbers game again. One troll can ruin the day of 100 other people. There always seem to some people that actually enjoy the trolling thing. Plus most of us are better at talking then listening. The internet is mostly a safe space for talking. Not so much always for listening.
Finally with all of its issues places like Reddit and other moderated forums are pretty effective. The people that do not like them are the Trolls. They will tend to leave and go to the free speech places which means those places have a much high density these days.
I also wonder if this has something to do with the breath of society and ways of being. There has always been part of society with this rough and tumble male culture where might makes right. Maybe it is some of that and how that part of society struggles with modern sensibilities.
Anyway my theory.
This will sound very pessimistic, but I think what you are witnessing is a more accentuated version of reality.
It’s more intense for a number of reasons (it takes less dedication to spread hate online, these communities are small so moderation isn’t as effective, the userbase is small so a few users make a bigger splash, communities of this technical nature have a historical lineage that selects for a certain strain of uncritical laissez-faire individualism, etc), but they are nothing that is totally alien to the rest of a given society.
Reality won’t let us catch a break, we are forced to actively maintain the good stuff at any given moment.
Not condoning bigotry, but it kind of sounds like you are saying you prefer echo chambers. It is healthy to see opinions you disagree with, even from bigots. Seeing opinions you disagree with allows for critical thinking about why you disagree. Even though ignorance is bliss, it is still ignorance.
I also think the sample size fallacy may come in to play here. i.e. comparison of billions of users (reddit) to tens of thousands (lemmy - post migration, if I understand correctly, previously lemmy was in the thousands user pre migration from reddit).
There’s a limit though. It’s dangerous to approach nazis, tankies, fascists, etc in good faith. I don’t think anyone making pro-Russia posts deserves a seat at the table. Personally.
It’s healthy to see good faith opinions you disagree with from reasonable people… It’s not at all healthy to see opinions from bigots and trolls. There is a big difference there
It’s only healthy to hear opinions that you disagree with when those opinions don’t include the dehumanization of others.
I was concerned about entering an echo chamber but then I remembered that I wouldn’t sit and drink in a skin head bar, or hang around a nazi rally. There’s something to be said about looking around the local environment and thinking “this isn’t for me”.
I can’t say that I’ve had many issues on other instances but there’s been a few posts where I’ve wandered in, then promptly noped back to the main feed because it was beyond “dissenting viewpoint” and more akin to walking into a room full of wasps.
If I want dissenting views I can go anywhere on the internet, but sometimes it’s nice to be able to discuss something you care about without being called names and dog-piled on. Kinda like walking out of the religious rally and into a library. It’s just a different environment.
Either you are misguided or you know what you want to say would be considered bigotry and expect to have your voice heard by everyone.
Trans people don’t need to “think critically” about why they disagree with anti-trans comments. It’s not “healthy” for trans people to be constantly reminded that there’s a % of the population that want them gone. It’s not ignorance, it’s a done debate. It’s a waste to debate people who’s aim is to open the dialogue up to extremist viewpoints.
I wrote up a long thoughtful response that seems to have not made it through (prob growing pains) and don’t have time to rewrite, so here is a shorter version; as best I can.
Not sure what your first paragraph means. I am not trans so hesitate to speak on the trans experience, but will do my best.
Others pointed out good vs bad faith, which I did not specify, but I was thinking of good faith discourse (even from bigots). “Trans are mutants - full stop” comments are not what I’m thinking. “Trans are mutants because they mutate their body” comments are more what I’m thinking. I do not jump to assume that person is trolling or (intentionally) pushing propaganda, but moreso full of, and operating off of misinformation and don’t understand the difference between “mutant gene” and “body mutation”.
“Piercings, tattoos, and really all surgeries are body mutations. Are you saying you think that women with breast cancer shouldn’t be able to have breast removal surgery, if necessary, just so that trans men can’t have breast removal surgery?” is the thought path I go down for a comment like that. I think it is important to say those things to the person, so they also have a chance to critically think about the topic, rather than have Fox news tell them what to think. Pretty easy to discuss and defend the pro-trans side of that IMO.
It’s a done debate
If the debate was done, we wouldn’t still have anti-trans legislation being shoved down our throat. Debate being done in one community (leftists - which, is it really over in the broad leftist community?), does not mean the debate is over. Acting like the debate is over is ONLY detrimental to the trans community, as this can lead to the trans community not having a spot at the debate table, and you can be guaranteed the bigots WILL BE at the debate table. The trans community should have a spot at the debate table.
I was raised in a cult, your second paragraph is almost exactly what they teach their youth as a means to silence facts about their history and dissenting opinions, keeping the echo chamber what they want.
To be very clear, I am comparing echo chambers, not saying trans community = cult.
Here is your second paragraph slightly edited:
Mormon people don’t need to “think critically” about why they disagree with anti-mormon comments. It’s not “healthy” for mormon people to be constantly reminded that there’s a % of the population that want them gone. It’s not ignorance, it’s a done debate [look at all our official Mormon church resources which say so (echo chamber)]. It’s a waste to debate people who’s aim is to open the dialogue up to extremist viewpoints [like separation of church and state and approval of anti-family communities (this is what they call LGBTQ+ to sound less bigoted)].
Dangerous game.
I am all for safe spaces, as long as the people participating in them don’t act like the content in the safe space is the only content/opinions/facts that exist, as does the Mormon church.
Trolls and propaganda bots should be curtailed, I consider this part of growing pains. However, dissenting opinions (in good faith), belong and deserve proper discourse to give the OP the chance to see facts and context that would NEVER come through Fox news.
Whilst I agree in principal to “healthy to see opinions you disagree with”, I don’t want to see things like “trans people are mutants” (which is disgusting rhetoric).
I don’t think this necessarily brings around “ignorance is bliss”. News articles of Trump blaming “mutants” are enough to remind me why I formed these opinions, without having to debate it with people of dissenting opinion.
Yeah, there is a huge difference between level-headed differentiating of opinions versus those who basically push their opinions as facts.
For example, in the dev world there’s always “language wars” of which programming language is “better” - I’m okay with people advocating for a language and giving their reasons why they believe this to be the case. Sometimes in those instances I learn something new about a language and it motivates me to learn more about it and consider using it in a new project.
What I’m not okay with is if I say “I like to use Java, as its one of the first languages I started with” and am just told “Why would you ever consider such a thing! Java is horrible!” and then provide either no reason why, or its just complete nonsense.
Or, I personally do not like pineapple pizza - but that is just my preference. I don’t go around telling people that pineapple pizza is awful, and I surely do not condemn those who do like it.
Nuance is usually the missing thing when it comes to this sort of thing.
That being said, there are some topics where I do not think there could ever be anyone who can (and its very rare that I see things as absolutes) convince me there will be a genuine opposing opinion for, such as trans rights. There’s not a single force that exists in our universe that would have me believe in anything but the rights of others. If there are bigots who want to believe that I’m evil because of this, oh well, I won’t lose any sleep over that. Those topics are just not up for debate, and never will be.
Voat became such a garbage site. It was (barely) tolerable in its early days but with the influx of the reddit refugees from the FPH and “Chimpire” subs, it started down the path to trash fire. My favorite (sarcasm) part was how the racists even attacked the Voat creator & original boss because he was Muslim. Yet the owner was such a tool that he shrugged it off with “Free Speech.”
By the time it failed – and yes, I know that there’s a version of Voat still around but it’s like 300 white supremacists all doing a giant circle jerk – there wasn’t a place on Voat that wasn’t a toxic cesspool.
I recently told this tale but I’ll tell it again: There was a short lived Reddit alternative that closed down for, as best as I can tell, mostly trying to run at just the wrong time. They sounded a lot like Beehaw: Open communication but no hate speech allowed.
They started growing around the time that Reddit was cracking down on the alt-reich subs that were doxxing people and making actual threats of violence, like the_dondon (You know what I mean) and its ilk, plus stomping out the incels. Both groups went crying to Voat. Voat, amusingly, called them all poseurs and downvoted them off the site. So they - especially the alt-reich kids - went to the new site.
The new site handled them with such grace it still boggles my mind. They told them all, basically, “Thanks for coming! It’s so nice you want to be here, but, sorry, you’re breaking our rules. Here’s your hat. So sorry you can’t stay with us! We wish you all the best. Bye bye, now!” and deleted all their accounts and the communities they created, and that was that.
It was a cute site and it could have been something nice, but it just didn’t fully get off the ground. I feel bad that I cannot remember the name of it.
Are you referring to Imzy?
Can you see what instance these transphobic comments are coming from? I have an inkling it might be some cesspit like exploding-heads… they probably need to start getting defederated.
I’m on lemmy and haven’t either, to be fair.
Though I probably just don’t go into threads with that topic.
I’ve seen nothing like that on kbin either
I’m still just wrapping my head around the fact that we’re all on different sites talking. I’m on kbin and it’s weird to see people be like “it’s not like that over on kbin” and i’m like… why are you saying that haha
I wish you provided specific examples of this behavior because otherwise it just sounds like a doom and gloom post. I’m personally having lots of fun and while I’ve run into some people that obviously aren’t here to build a community, generally I like the vibe and overall excitement in the air. If there really is a bunch of people trying to ruin it, I think it’s in everyone’s best interest to stop it before it gets out of control.
I have yet to see any anti trans stuff on kbin and I’m on it all the time, so I think OP is full of shit.
Yeah, the only pisstakes I’ve seen on lemmy/kbin (which I’ve probably been actively scrolling through for about 15-20h by now), have been downvoted to oblivion. And I only think I’ve seen two.
Imo the community so far has been great, dunno if it’s because it’s still new and exciting to people, but I feel like there’s a huge difference in positivity in communities/magz compared to their subreddit equivalents, and more helpful/interesting comment sections.deleted by creator
I don’t necessarily think OP is FOS. I’m just having an entirely different experience. That could be because I signed up with kbin.social and am subscribed to non-political magazines. It’s been a very chill experience so far.
I asked him for examples, because my suspicion was that he signed up on kbin, but saw a post from lemmy or exploding heads or something. And he was new to the fediverse so he didn’t realize that just because he’s seeing it on kbin, that doesn’t mean it’s fron kbin.
But he didn’t reply.
Voat was always designed to be a refugee for the lowest type of scum of Reddit. It never turned into anything that it wasn’t meant to be from day 1.
If you see transphobic comments in trans positive communities then I’d just report them. All instances of the fediverse, especially the major ones like kbin and Lemmy, have seen a very large influx of new people, postings and comments, as well as the odd performance issues. Those things will settle down with time. So far I cannot really say that I see kbin to be particularly hateful. There’s a lot of lgbt friendly magazines popping up on the main page and generally the tone has been overall friendly.
One of the first posts I clicked on lemmy was about AI or something like it in the technology magazine on beehaw. It’s was a normal text but underneath the text illegal images popped in. That was a harrowing first experience. I just reported it and it was purged and the user banned. I wont the trolls win, I’ll rather help keep communities clean.
Since having left Reddit I’ve been spending a lot of time on Kbin reading through all kinds of posts. While I’m sure that there are bad eggs everywhere you go, I haven’t seen much hateful posts/comments. But then again, maybe I’ve just missed those
Still we need to stay vigilant and report content that does not belong here
I haven’t seen anything like that, I don’t even see whatever response you’re quoting
Any place where anyone can register for an account without much of a background check and anonymity is doomed to become full of shit in due time. Hence active moderation is a very important aspect of Reddit or any social media platform.
Unfortunately it is still early days for lemmy or kbin and the moderation tools are yet to mature. There are a few bad post on this account but I don’t think it is full doom and gloom.
I am more in a wait and watch situation and will see how it goes in a few months before taking a call.
